I've been thinkin about this for a while. Theoretically, could Terrans go SK Terran against Protoss? Instead of irradiate, you would research emp first and then get the rest of the tech. While holding off of 2 base, you start massing mm along with Vessels. The vessels could irradiate any templar and if they try to moprh into archons, you can emp them. DTs aren't too useful against mid-game mm armies and science vessels provide easy detection. Defense matrix could also be used occasionally. EMP against Maelstrom and protect against sairs and scouts with your mm force. I'm not saying that it's practical, considering the multitasking needed to do this, but is it possible? If it is then it would be fun for games between more skilled players and the amatuers. the skilled players would try to pull this off and have a disadvantage due to the multitasking it needs. The one weak spot I see in the build are reavers but if you have good scouting, a wraith or two may be able to pick off any shuttles.

The best you could do with m&m is in a early game push if the opponent doesn't scout it, but reavers with careful backup dismantle SK terran in the long run. factor speedlots into the mix and you have a mathematical nightmare for a SK build.

well actually reavers and speedlots could be coped with since your army is quite cheap, the problem is STORM and STORM will totally MASSACRE you. thats like dark swarm with 10 lurks underneath and you walking in

so no its not a valid strategy because storm is instant in casting and emp has flighttime and costs more energy to boot

Yeah, But I was thinking of emping and irradiating high templar beforehand. This, of course, requires extreme skill and is part of the reason that people will not be able to do this strategy but I still believe this strategy is theoretically possible.

You should try this and post the reps. I guarantee you that you will lose if P is semi-competent ~_~

It's not possible on bnet lag and even on lan latency, you need gosu storm predictions to dodge 1-2 storms. Once it gets to 4-5 storms, you will lose half your army in about 2 seconds. Just take my word for it that it's not possible by any means except as a timing attack before P gets hts.

Sounds a lot like Deep Six...

It would be like a weird fast version of deep 6. As many people have said, as soon as storm pops, your going to find it very difficult. Yes, vessels can irradiate/emp, however, dragoons shoot vessels down in a heartbeat, and 4-5 storms will destroy any reasonably sized terran army, unless your storm prediction and flank is leagues ahead of your opponent. The only time i've found mnm viable vs toss is in a very early rush against dragoons with tanks as backup, and in the mid-game when one or two groups of mnm can be very powerful in a static contain, building bunkers and keeping alot of tanks around. But vessels just aren't going to work well, and even if they start to be a problem for the toss, they can just bring in a shuttle... So meh, if you manage to get it in before that tech comes out, you have a good shot, but its very chancy...

You will likely need to emp like 4 times at once in order to make sure that there would be no storms to kill your army with. It's just flanks would be an absolute nightmare.

EMP costs more energy than storm, and Vessels cost way more resources than High Templar. Whatever you, the Terran tries to do, the Protoss will always be one step ahead. M&M works against Zerg because Zerglings are cheap and numerous, and thus can be wittled down with time. Protoss, on the other hand, have shields and can afford the odd hit.

Alright, got it. Basically wont work.

Storms! haha

Not in late game but it's a perfectly viable surprise timing push. It actually catches a lot of Ps off guard because they're not used to dealing with mnm.

On the subject of that, since I can't be screwed making a new thread, what is the build order for Deep Six and how does it work.

When is it viable?

Is it used that often.

What is this "deep six"?
Sounds like a NASA shuttle xD

Deep six is a BO that, as I understand, was popular quite a while ago. Unfortunately, it basically requires you to be constantly out-pacing and getting in ridiculous shots with your units. I'm not sure on the exact build order, but I've learned it as a 1 fact FE into 2-rax, so you can defend the exp against an early goon push, make sure to get eng bay before that exp comes up, and keep on guard for a reaver/dt harass. Then, while getting upgrades for marines, you put down a second factory, and 4 more raxes, so you have 6 rax 2 factory. I then pump straight tanks and MnM from the two base, and try to push out when i have 1/1 bio and 1 attack on the tanks, which usually happens around 6-10 tanks and 2-3 groups of mnm.

Unfortunately, if your opponent spots this, you really need to switch it up and include fbats or some anti zealot, because that will counter your push and shut down the strategy. I basically go all-in for a contain at this point, and hopefully the opponent will be mostly goons up until now, and you will be able to push them back into their natural, slowly pushing tanks forward and setting up a static defense with bunkers/depos and turrets. If you can establish this contain, and avoid the harass, your next priority should be keeping ahead on upgrades, getting a third, and getting ahead by drops or mass tanks or something...

As a viable strategy, however, you're working uphill, the Protoss can simply spot that first push coming, and do a slow retreat back to his base while producing a ton of zealots. All he really has to do is be intelligent in that retreat, outranging the MnM, and picking off tanks if they get too aggressive, then bring in the half dozen zealots to break any chance of contain, and quickly teching to HTs, which basically spell GG. You would have to get in perfect stims, bring in 4+ scvs to establish a block against the zealots, while microing tanks to hit goons, and marines to pick off zealots while avoiding the hits that would basically end the push.

If you're feeling ballsy and you spot a quick expansion or really feel that he might go for a safer double expo after a reaver harass (which the MnM with tanks are very strong against if you can split them quickly), this could be a very strong push... Also, I've heard this is a very good late-game counter to mass carriers, but thats not really a bo, more of a ballsy move to get ghosts and MnM to try and lockdown carriers and destroy interceptors...

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Edit: I found a very good write-up of the strategy: http://www.battlereports.com/viewreports.php?reportnum=1633

It has a few good points I haven't ever really incorporated, and alot about how ghosts can really be an asset.

Deep Six < speed zlots, dt's, storm, reavers, cannons, range goons + micro...

it's like a 5-6 rax all in in a TvZ in a sense. If they scout it they just get more sunkens and you're fucked.

when i first read the OP i thought it was pretty rediculous, but the deep 6 thing sounded interesting. I searched on TL and came across a thread where a guy was querying about it. Somebody posted this rep:


http://www.panschk.de/mappage/replays/mush...ess%20pvrt1.rep

Game is pretty amazing tbh, i only wish it was played on a normal map like python T_T. I also think that the protoss' play was dodgy at times, and that investing in reavers early on was a mistake and he should have skipped straight to templar.

Never the less, a pretty interesting game and maybe something to try out

oh wow deep six sounds like a tough BO to play...

Using marine/medic is pretty much trash. Its good if you do a very early rush (would be considered cheese) if they decide to expand before tech. Any 1 base tech build into expand would slaughter it beyond the ability to work. Going wraiths for shuttles... part of going M&M is not having to spend the money on building 2 factories for the early game, but you have to use that money on +1 dmg/stim/range instead of wraiths. You dont have the gas for a time push to include wraiths. Late game m&m against toss is trash, not even worth mentioning.

Reavers and storms would be a nightmare=) its better to rush with 2 rax or any marine rush variation.