Good Zerg -.-
Noob Zerg!
Noob Zerg P2

It seemed like the good zerg denied my third expo way too much. I might have had to try fighting harder to get a third up maybe?

YEAH DEFINATLEY DOOD

good zerg usually contains its opponent first down to 2 bases, then mass expand 5 different places and run in with +3 upgraded ultralisk + crack lings with 10 hatchs

I'm pretty unimpressed with your good zerg. You made quite a few poor game decisions, but were quite in control of things up until just after you pushed his 3rd gas. (Left corner)

Things to work on:

Building Placement at your nat. Your placement in your main was better than it's been, but could still use work

Not pulling 12 probes when you see 6 lings

Not cannoning your main when your opponent is going hydra

Expo sooner - This is obvious. You were mined out in your main before your 3rd came online.

Unit composition - Zealot/Temp is pretty bad vs. Hydra/Lurker. Pumping sairs isn't really helpful in this situation either. Make more goons. Also a reaver or two would have done wonders for base defense.

Scouting. You scouted well through the early game, but you have to keep it up. Also, you have to learn how to interpret the scout.

Harass - Use that shuttle! Even if you're just dropping zealots in his main, do something to draw his attention. For example, had you dropped zealots in his main before attacking top left, you might have drawn his army back to his base and out of the middle of the map. He would not have been apply to respond so quickly to your attack, and you might have killed more than a handful of drones.

You should have seen the 3rd much sooner. A few points that can help:
1.) When you see a single drone moving out after the earliest parts of the game, you can pretty much count on it being an expo. (3:36)

2.) When you attacked with the single zealot and killed a few drones (which was good) you saw that he only had a hand full of lings and was still pumping his economy. This is more evidence of another expo somewhere.

3.) Game sense. You know PvZ is all about gas. He has to secure a 3rd to have a chance. Always be looking for it.

addin on to bitter's advices, use reavers for harass, they are really good vsing zerg larva/egg/tech ups, pretty much kill all that crap off
time ur 3rd, once u have enough $ and nough units to defend (i assume u have liike 1 1/2 control groups of goons and zealots along with 1-2 observers, ud b able to make ur 3rd, reaver harass is deadly, go run in with 3 shuttles with 2 reavers and 8 zealots, it will own an entire zerg base

another advice is just do a one base tech up, i've won 2 games ving this d+ c- zerg with one base tech and lost 2 with bisu build, consider that, it might help

thanks for the advice. MrB could you clarify up a bit better building placement and noobeater cud u elaborate more on that 1 tech thing?

First - Your placement at the nat is crucial because that's what determines whether or not your opponent can run past. The red square thingies are the places where units can fit through. These are the spaces you have to block. Watch the replay I uploaded to this post. In it you'll see that you can easily block your choke with only 3 probes. Not 12. =)



Next is gate placement.



Notice that I've crammed as many gates into as small a space as possible. This allows me to fit more gates into my main with the least possible clutter from pylons.

Lastly is tech placement.



I like doing it like this... With all my tech buildings on one screen I can easily research multiple things without having to skip around the map.

Lastly is the replay. It's a PvZ on Blue Storm against a D+ opponent. My opponent attempted to run past and failed, and then I teched to goon/reaver and won.

There were plenty of mistakes in here by both players. Feel free to critique, but do make note of expansion timings, building placements, and responses to Zerg harass.

I noticed that you started your nexus at 14. I dont usually start mine till like 17-18 after i get a second pylon....and than you even had that gate and asim up lightning fast. I didnt notice or not, but you probably cut probes right? Overall, very nice play. I enjoyed watching the replay. Also that was an excellent example of unit mixing too ^^ as i need help with that. did you have a solid game plan that you were going goon/reaver when you played him? Or is that more for progamers.....

Still workin on the pvz, eh Race? ^^ Let me know if you want to practice. I'd be glad to extend my win streak ^^

The strategy that he probably used (note that I didn't watch the replay yet) was actually called "14 Nexus". That's the standard.

@MrB:
I think your gateway setup would trap Dragoons at a couple spots, no?

I went into the game knowing I wanted to use reavers. At our level of play (Think D- to C-) I think reavers are much more effective than high templar. Missing a storm is much worse than misfiring a single scarab, especially in the early game.

Obviously the choice to go goon heavy came when I noticed his dedication to hydras and lurkers. Goons have no trouble dealing with that combination.

Had he switched to mass ling the reavers may have lost some effectiveness. If you play a PvZ that goes that way switching to DT can prove helpful (goon/DT) because ovies aren't the kind of thing you want floating around 12-24 goons. Obviously zealots, archons and storm are all wildy effective against lings as well, the DT switch is just something I've had nice success with.

I do cut probes at 14/15 to add my nexus. Think about it like this: You have 8-9 mineral patches in your main. If your goal is 1.5-2 probes per patch, 14 is gracious plenty. Cutting probes to add a nexus at that point becomes much more economically effective than if you were to pump steadily until you have 400 excess minerals because all those extra probes aren't really adding much to your mineral intake. You get your expo up faster, reap the rewards of the 2nd gas faster, and have a stronger economy overall.

Nah if you clump all the gates right, they won't get stuck. I havn't tested MrB's placement, but it doesn't look wrong to me.

Actually no, Omi. Watch the rep if you'd like. Goons all get out and about just fine.

Thought as much.

Goons get out of that gateway placement just fine because they don't get trapped where there is no places to warp buildings, eg. Green squares. MrBitter's gateway placement is tight.

However, High Templar may get stuck in some places and are completely trapped.

.....That's a good zerg?...

victory just shut up ^^ shut up

lol.

Well either way, let me know when you want to work on that PvZ. You might beat me one day ^^


...Well, maybe......

Ur gateway placement might be fine for dragoons, but you're going to trap any templar you make in those gateways above, and between two other gateways.

k heres me playing. Im a bit sloppy in the beginning coz it was my first game of the day but....I think i have a solid PvZ right now. Maybe upperish D Oo
PvZ

fast 1 base tech
do the standard 1 gate 1 assim 1 zealot 1 pylon 1 cyber build.
then hide ur robo in the back sum where along with ur bay.
build speed for shuttle and 2nd reaver, harass ur opponent by killin his or her eggs and larvas, and if u micro, u can take out 5-10 hydras with 1 reaver, aim for the drones first, they are very expensive for zerg

You showed some improvement here, but your opponent wasn't very good and you still made some pretty glaring mistakes.

1.) Building placement. You really need to work on this. Your cannon placement in your nat had your goons pretty well trapped. You can make better use of the area in your main. Watch some pro games and make note of how they arrange their gates.

2.) Timing. Your expo timing was much better (though taking the 12 o'clock nat was not the best choice) but the timing of your tech buildings was off. Your core was extremely late, for example. This slowed down the rest of your tech tree. Also, when you scouted his hydras for the first time (around 8 minutes maybe) you should have immediately added cannons. Had he pushed you at that point he would have easily broken down your nat.

3.) Tech choice. You started goon range immediately after your core completed, but didn't make a single goon for a looong time. Additionally, you only made like 5 the whole game, and most of 'em were stuck in your nat.

4.) Unit composition. When I was first learning PvZ I was also very prone to go zealot/temp every game. Unfortunately, that unit mix is epic fail against lurkers. It can work alright against hydras, but you have to storm very well. Additionally, archons tend to fail against mass hydra. You morphed two archons after seeing his hydras. This was bad.

You did do some things very well, though. You only pulled 3 probes for his lings, which was nice to see. Your scouting was also much better. I could tell when you were looking for his third. You do need to still work on scouting more, though. I like to get a couple sairs and patrol them between possible expansion locations.

On the whole there was obvious improvement in that game. Still, much work to do be done. Keep it up.

Watched the new video

1.) You scout him going what looks like overpool speed, or 9pool speed. I think its overpool though, but it doesn't really matter. You got two cannons up. Your scout was still alive and he was chasing it. No reason to pull probes.

2.) Nexus before Pylon. You might hit your psi cap for a bit for it, but getting that base going sooner is better.

3.) I don't like your forge/gate wall. Forge should be farther up, with cannons behind the forge, not beside it.

4.) Overpool speed is designed to deny your scout, and your oppenent fails at doing that lol

5.) omg stop blocking your ramp, get those probes mining.(4:30ish)

6.) Put zealots in the gaps in your wall, on hold position. Whats the point in holding your ramp if he kills your cannons/nat?

7.) Normally if you are going Sair/DT, or any Corsair builds, you get your starport first, for faster scouting.

8.) When checking for expos, check at places closer to him. No sane Zerg would take their 3rd base at cross positions from themselves, that would be next to impossible to defend.

9.) Weapons are much more important than Armor in PvZ. If you want Armor, get another Forge.

10.) wtf why are YOU expanding at cross positions from yourself? The guy's army is much larger than your own, and is running around in the middle of the map, and you decide to expand at almost the farther possible location?

11.) You needed more gateways earlier. Its like 9 minutes in, and just now you are starting to add gates.

12.) Oh yeah, you started researching storm, but I don't see any HTs yet. You need to get like 3 or 4 a while ago so you can move out.

13.) You expanded far far away, so cannon that bitch first. You are taking a huge risk.

14.) haha, your pulling probes. If you had gotten some HTs out earlier, you wouldn't be in danger. Plus hes not really attacking. You sorta were over reacting, and didn't take a good look about whats going on.

15.) Why are you forge Archons at this point? He is going Hydraling, and those Hydra could possibly become Lurker. I could understand maybe getting one Archon, and then be happy with like 3 or 4 HTs, but you are gonna have 2 archons that will die to Hydra, and 2-3 less storms.

16.) FFFffffffffffffffffffff stop with the Armor, you want to get +3 attack so your goons will pwn Ultras, and your Archons can 1 hit lings.

17.) You caught him at a good time. Here is a tip; When you find him morphing alot of Lurkers like that, storm those eggs twice. The eggs will die. And that would be alot of wasted money for the zerg.

18.) You need more gates.

19.) The zerg is moving out again, need to watch that radar more closely... How/Why didn't he kill your templar? I mean they were fucking surrounded by tons of lings.

20.) He has really bad lurker placement. All grouped together like that=frown. And then LOL 2gas Ultra? Well then again, its not like you have been getting weapons upgrade. But you kill it. And I guess he just gives up?


So, those are the things I saw that you should improve/do differently next time.

lol...next time ill try playing a game AFTER im warmed up

Most of the things I saw wrong weren't a result of mechanics (not to say you shouldnt get faster), but decision making and game sense.

okok i got a very hard pvz rep on python. I cant post it coz i am out of "attachement space" so i will describe it. He went 3 hatch, i scouted the third hatch decently quick coz i thought something fishy was going on with the lack of lings. Than, he went into lurker/ling. I was sort of taken back on it, sort of because of my sloppy play i forgot my obs bay for quite a while, but i took a third because he was just defending and getting himself into a good position. I expoed to the main, of the third expo nat i took, and moved out and obliterated one of his bases. He tried to counter me with ultra/ling but my unit combo was pretty powerful and i beat him! I was so exited i actually won that engagement i only stared with awe at my units and forgot to macro till my mins were like 3000 and gas was 2500...I think that made me lose the game becuase he was ahead there because i had almost 10 whole units that i could have had fighting that werent there. Also i think my transition into archons was a tad bit late. He destroyed 2 expos, i took another, but my probe saturation was very poor. I tried evening things out but i just didnt have any probes so i couldnt produce any more units gg

use rapidshare to post a replay and link us

rapidshare doesnt work for me coz its gay. Everytime i enter the 4 digit thing, its always fucking wrong. I have tried up to 30 times trying to do something on rapidshare to no success >_>

w3rd.


if you want, you can (or anyone really) can contact me via AIM at Fizzy Bill

send me the replay through AIM and Ill post it via rapidshare where ever you want it. its no big deal for me.

1 cannon > 6 lings
ur nexus was super late u had probes queryed up the probe block was pointless cause ur scouting probe was dragging lings with it
zerg was not good he coulda killed u sooner if he wasent stupid and followed ur lots
y would u send ur zealots to die on his 3rd xpo
ur problem is u always send small armies to die while the other guy just steamrolls u after u lose army after army
2 many probes
need more obs at least 6 obs every fight u had no obs to kill lurkers
he used hydras to kill u...
toss never dies to pure hydra...

1 cannon is NOT better htan 6 lings 1v1 fight >_>

Depending on your wall and blocking, 1 cannon can beat 6 lings, but its really risky and I don't recommend it. 1 cannon can't stop a runby, for example.

if ur playing it safe 1 cannon nexus then gate or another cannon is SAFE
2cannons into nexus is a WASTE

soic...well i guess i see where hes coming from than