I have been iccuping a lot, and actually been doing very good in PvP.. but i struggle to beat 4 gate zealot.. When you first scout it, you see what looks like 2 gate zealot and then it turns into 4 gate zealot. Its getting annoying to lose to so I'm wondering what you guys think is the best way to counter it or best way to hold it off? Thank you! Im trying to find the best ways as well, but all comments/help is appreciated

Sorry about the double post delete this

Now Im not really that great of a player, but Im assuming you are referring to this cheese:

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/3_Gat...8vs._Protoss%29

Kinda weird to be facing 4 gate zeal though...considering its 3 gate, but anyway.
It says reaver is good, since they will have no anti air. Though, if you keep your scouting probe alive, which you should be able to considering they only produce zealots, you can adapt to what they are doing, since they wont have any goons. If you seem them massing zealots, just adapt your strategy to them. I guess its easier on a ramped map, but you also need good goon micro, the hit and run technique should work. It also says 3 gate goon range is a pretty good counter, as long as you have enough goons, and are microing properly. Try holding off expanding until you beat their attack, and then you should be in good shape for the rest of the game. It all depends on scouting and adapting to your opponents build.

Well, I'm only D rank so some of my advice might be wrong, but it is based on Liquipedia which is a great resource.

if u can get a reaver out, you should be able to hold just about any ramped map with just a few zealots and a goon or two to block(which you should be producing anyway if you scout the 2gate zeals)

hmmm well I have faced 3 and 4 gate zealots.. The thing is, I have a hard time holding my ramp because of the pure amount of zealots they send at me. they usually send there first 3 and then they just stream more in.

and yes. In reality i could keep my probe alive for longer since its all zealots, but of course that comes w/ multiasking.

Post a replay so we know what's wrong with you ;D

4 gate zealot would be open to dt and reavers.

Hopefully your keeping your scouting probe alive long enough to see a few zealots being made, 2 gates, and no gas. So, a slow tech build with alot of zealots. At the start, to ward off their first early attack, and potentially harass if they dont get early zealots, you will want to get a zealot or two yourself, then continue teching as you were before. You should be able to get your goons out in time to hold off more zealots after their first 2 to 3, as long as you manage to hold your ramp long enough.

On a ramped map, there shouldnt be too much of a problem if zealots continue to attack, put your zealots on your ramp, with your goons behind them, and focus his zealots down, while continuing teching to reaver/dt/mass goon as you were planning before, and you will probably be at an advantage, having more anti air/faster tech. If there isnt a ramp, a timing attack can be hard to hold off before you advance your tech, you will need to micro well with your goons, and delay them from getting into your base as much as possible (assuming he outnumbers you by a fair bit with 4 gate zealots) until more units/higher tech is out to fully defend. I'm assuming he doesnt get speed? Otherwise I would think his attack would come out too late, and you would have the units/tech to hold it off.

And yeah, a replay would help us to help you with more specific stuff.

I wouldn't mass goon vs. zealot, because if the OP is weak in micro they probably wouldn't able to fend off mass zealots while a few others stream in and rape their probes.

Gotta keep your probe alive. If you see it coming, play cautious, since it can fuck you up if you aren't careful. Block ramp, tech to Reaver or DT, then fuck him.

That's actually Sent's advice for everything.

Thats how life works. You wait for someone to present themselves, and then you fuck them.

kk thanks for your help.. ill try this out and let you guys know

i don't think any of the advice so far would work. If a smart player is going 3 gate zeal, or even 4, they will timing push you to beat ur 1 gate tech or 2 gate tech. Their timing will come right as u start up a templar archives or robo, so they have that many more minerals in zealots as opposed to tech. "fast tech" simply put, is not a sufficient and explained answer.

Simple solution. If u are scouting and u see a constant zeal pump from 2 gates with 0 gas, this probably means u need to respond. If u already put down ur gas leave it, but dont use it, u need to almost match the zealot count. With ramps a battery after ur first 4-6 zealots will stop this cold. Don't worry about trying to get fast tech out. If they go 4 gate zeal its basically all in like a 4pooling zerg. Make SURE you do whatever u can to stop the rush, even if it sets u back alilttle bit in tech and econ, because once you stop it u should win.

VS a 4 gate, 2 gate zealots with battery should stop this, assmning ramp like most maps. Watch any zvz and see how they make half circles with lings around their chokepoints/ramps. Do this the same with zealots. Having the battery and decent micro can make u the victor. this means off 2 gates set ur money priority to zealots, then probes. U will notice as u get further on in the game u can pump from the 2 gates and nex fine with extra minerals left over. Use this 200 for the core and once u get ur core get some goons to back up ur zealots.

O yeah, don't get psi locked. remember 2 gates is 4 psi worth of units. Keep a pylon ahead.

Replay & read this: http://sc2gg.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4607

No, going 2gate reaver or DT is a counter to this. You simply have to block your ramp. 4gate zealot is dangerous in an open area where he can surround you. While he is wasting zealots to break your ramp, you are simply holding position, and teching. And he cannot do anything about your tech. I'm not saying you tech straight to whatever, ignoring getting units, but you don't need to out produce him to beat him. If he can't get up your ramp, he loses.

Sent gets to it before I could. I actually saw this before but I had to leave for work. You're lucky he got to this before me, because I wasn't going to be as nice.. or forgiving.

lol ero xD

I was gonna say something too lol. But yea, if you can hold the ramp, everything should be just fine.

i've trouble with this as well, but i find a shield battery works wonders. they come up very quick and provide an extra few hundred hp.

also: use your probes to help defend, especially by moving over the zealots and getting their movement ai confused. 6 zealots will probably beat 2 dragoons, but if you use your probes to help fight / block against the zealots, combined with a shield battery, it's a lot easier.

also if you are facing a constant stream of zealots, it's sometimes a good idea to stop making dragoons and switch to zealots yourself, because they're built faster and don't do explosive damage.

um...I think if you cant probe drill well, handing your probe over to the zealot isnt very smart thing to do o-o;;;;;;

I pretty much said the same thing as you. Prioritize on zealots, and do what you can with ur extra minerals. I never said you had to out produce him, just be careful not to undeproduce. Even with a ramp, if he pumps out of 3-4 gates, thats 1-2 MORE zealots he has to fight up a ramp. And a decent toss with proxy the 3-4 gate to eliminate the disadvantage of resuply time. And do everything possible not to let a zealot in. Again, batteries are ur best friend here.

I would say dont even worry about trying to get to reavers or dts. If u get 3-4 goons you should be able to micro and push into a failed 3-4 gate for a faster win. Which IMO is a sure fire win. Fast dt's could get haulted by a cannoon, especially if something sneaks in and sees it. Shuttle with a goon/reaver could work too since their wouldnt be enough goons to fend off the attack(if u don't have retarded micro) and cannons are useless against handled reavers.

Alright, this is what you do.

You start off with your standard PvP build (for example 12 gas), you scout and notice 10/12 gate or no gate (thus proxy), you take any probes you may have off gas, and you build a second gateway.

The standard zealot add-on comes in odd numbers: 1-3-5-7 etc... (according to Bisu, so I'll take his word for it).

You can tech towards either dt or reaver, and even squeeze a goon out or two, but you'll mainly want to focus on zealots because your opponent will be looking to do some major damage and win. Let's say you have 5 zealots with a goon or two just starting up. Let's say he has 7-9 zealots with 3 more on the way. As long as he micros correctly he'll get up there, so you best be watching if he gets his gas or not. If he's not getting gas when you're around 25 supply, chances are he's really looking to go all-in with this. This is when thoughts of a battery shield enter your head (if you want to continue the tech route), otherwise you're just going to have to match zeal for zeal and micro.

You can tech to DT, if he has cannon, see if you can destroy it with your zealots/goons, or occupy his troops to sneak a dt in and hope he doesn't have a cannon at his main. What you can also do is - hey, you have a templar archives and a DT, he can't attack you so expo and get storm tech, a couple archons since he'll be zealot heavy, and go for a storm drop as you macro up.

And reaver is just as obvious, if handled well the guy is fucked - especially if he delayed his gas for going a pretty all-in 4 gate zealot

Okie dokie, thank you..

that makes sense and sounds like something i can do!

ty ty

Yeah, worship at will.

With DTs, you don't even have to kill him. DTs mean they he can't attack you, and he can't move out. Too many people think that DTs have to do damage to carry their weight, but the threat DT pose can be worth it even if you don't kill a single unit with them.

i agree 100% with that. and that method can lead u to a later victory.

My assumption is that they lost more zealots than you would trying to push up a ramp. From there u can make 5-6 goons and practice micro. Either way, we both get to a win.

Too very true. I've seen people lose games with DT because they got way too hasty with them.

I bolded/underlined a sentence that is missing out on a huge part of StarCraft.

When you take an advantage like the one you get vs any failed cheese, pushing in for the fast win takes the least advantage possible in the situation.

If you can hold off a cheese and continue towards a mid or late game goal you will have sealed the game.

In SC, when you gain an advantage (ESPECIALLY tech or econ related), your advantage INCREASES with time.

In this example of PvP vs a 3/4 gate rush, the enemy player has the most advantage when his first attack comes. If you hold off that long enough to either get a tech advantage or an econ advantage (you either say get DT or reaver OR you get your 2nd base up after he backs off), you will find that your army is just completely outgunning, outnumbering, or in alot of cases both outgunning and outnumbering the enemy.

If you instead do what the quoted post above implies, you will find yourself using a small early game army to fight against a build that is designed to be powerful in early game. Don't use a build that is desinged to be good in the mid or late game to try to win in the early game.




Im a Z player so Im better at explaining with a Z example.

In a ZvT, say you face a Barracks Barracks Supply Proxy build on Destination. I, as the Z, started the game with a 3 hatch build. The enemy is going to show up either as the 2nd hatch is building or right when it comes out. The smart thing to do is to pull my drones to kill any bunkers that are coming up and hold on the 3rd hatchery for now and pump a group of lings out and maybe place a sunk.

Once I have secured my nat and I feel safe, I will stop ling production, drone up, and place the 3rd hatch and get my lair. Once the lair pops out I'll place my spire and then get my usual 9 mutas for a a little harass. Usually this harass turns into a game ender in this kind of game, if not, it will do more damage still than a usual harass and when my lurkers come out that will end things.

The lesson is that my standard build, though a bit delayed, is much stronger than a ling all in AND it faces a terran that is way behind.

lol, sadly for me, my microplaying is so much more fun to do and easier than macroing up, so I like to do all-in xD

There's several responses to this. Your immediate reaction should be to get AT LEAST 2 Gates and pump units, so you can hold a ramp. Then you have several options, all of which require good macro, fairly sick micro to hold your ramp, and just good timing sense in general.

1) The one I like most is to just tech straight to Dragoons and go multi-gate Dragoon (between 2 and 4 Gates, depending on if you have extra resources). Mass Dragoons will usually beat mass Zealots once you reach critical mass.

2) Go for a Reaver. Reavers just own Zealots. The only problem is that this is a very large money sink and probably takes the longest time, putting you at the biggest risk.

3) Go for DT's. I like this one a lot as well, because you can send 1 DT to their base and use the rest to defend. Not only do they rape Zealots, there's no way someone who is all-inning 3-4 Gate Zealots will have detection (at least mobile detection).

Overall, it depends on your micro and ability to defend. I actually run into this a lot when I gas steal my opponent, and even if you don't, he'll still be WAY behind in tech.